Star Trek is better than Star Wars. Diet Mountain Dew isn't even close. Found On Road Dead is an accurate acrostic for Ford. These are a few of the things I have become fully convinced of. But the big one for today is this: people need to stop saying that sin is God's will.
I bring this up in light of an interview on the Today show with Janay Rice, the wife of former Baltimore Raven Ray Rice. Their now infamous elevator incident in February has brought up important discussions on domestic violence. However, Janay added a new wrinkle when she told Matt Lauer that "God chose me and Ray" to go through this in order to bring this conversation to the forefront. Perhaps without realizing it, she is endorsing sin as part of God's plan for our lives.
Discussions of God's will do not have to be limited to theologians and pastors, but they should be limited to Scripture. To make the claim that God's plan involved sin takes us down a dangerous road. Undoubtedly, God's plan often involves pain and trials that are designed to strengthen our faith (James 1:2-4), but I cannot find a strong argument for sin and godliness to be in cahoots.
Prepare yourself for a shock....the Bible says God hates sin.
Psalm 5:4 says God does not "delight in evil" nor does any dwell within Him. Isaiah 59:2 informs us that our sin blocks our access to God through prayer and petition. Bunches of:others confirm this throughout Scripture.
If God directed Ray to knock his wife unconscious in that elevator, He also would have been leading this husband to violate the command of 1 Peter 3:7 to "live in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel." While I will never pretend to have my head wrapped around the sovereignty of God, I can say God's sovereign will is for us to be separated from the sin Jesus died to save us from. Let us never convince ourselves that sin is a part of God's plan.
Romans 9:17-18 seem to disagree with your proposition here.
ReplyDeleteYou could also have used Judas as an example. Clearly Judas was chosen as a disciple, in spite of the fact he became an eventual betrayer. So is the onus on Judas/Pharaoh or on God? Revelation 20:12 says people are judged according to what they have done, and not what God had them do. It's a challenge for the finite mind, but I remain convinced of my overall position.
DeleteThe point of Romans 9 (the whole chapter) is that while God is ultimately sovereign, we are still responsible. Verses 19-27 ask then answer the very same question you propose. Ultimately God is sovereign but in His ultimate justice we are still held accountable. In our finite human mind (I agree with you on that much!) it is hard to comprehend how God can ordain our sin then hold us accountable as he did in your example Judas. Judas's sin was prophesied centuries before it happened. Yet, Judas was still held accountable. So, in agreement with Rev 20 and Rom 9, we are held accountable. BUT also in agreement with Rom 9 (and the rest of scripture), God is sovereign.
ReplyDeleteSeems like we're not so far apart, though it comes down to a definition of what it is for God to "ordain" sin...back to the finite mind issue. For me to believe God is ignorant of our future choices is to disbelieve who God is. I simply can't get to the point of belief that God has put me on a path that made any sin ordained, and more importantly, unavoidable. Our understanding of how God works within that sovereignty continue to differ.
DeleteThis is why I specifically chose the Romans 9 example. When the passage says "He hardens whom he hardens" it is God actively ordaining (your term) the actions of Pharaoh.This is exactly what you describe as God putting him on the path to sin. It also helps us to correctly define sovereignty, which in any normal use of of the word demands actual control.
ReplyDeleteThe hardest part is to let go of that presumed yet non-existent control and trust that God is just in how he holds us accountable for something that he ultimately ordained.
I feel like I'm reading the script of "The Matrix". Long story short, how can we ever know which sin God ordained (your term first) and which sin we just chose? I presume your answer is that if one sin has been ordained as God's will, all sin is ordained as God's will. Not a faith construct I can come to from Scripture, especially as I read the minor prophets and God instructing Israel to avoid sin to avoid judgment. If the sin and judgment are unavoidable, God is disingenuous.
DeleteAt this point, it comes down to which of us is going to give the other the last word :)
Argh… I have to re-type all of this as I was not logged in when I went to submit and I REALLY like how I said it before. Nevertheless, it's as God willed :-)
ReplyDelete"At this point, it comes down to which of us is going to give the other the last word :)" …nah, this is good for both of us. It's an "iron sharpens iron" moment where we both benefit as we try to dissect scripture properly.
All things both good and bad are ordained by God. Romans 8 supports the idea that in the case of a believer, all things work together for good. All things there mean exactly that, ALL THINGS.
I think the main flaw in your "faith construct" is this statement,
"If the sin and judgment are unavoidable, God is disingenuous". This flies directly in contradiction to Romans 9. Was God disingenuous when he hardened Pharaoh's heart for his purposes? We are merely clay and He the potter.
Sin serves its purpose. It is impossible to know grace, mercy, and justice without sin. God, in His ultimate justice, omniscience and omnipotence has chosen to display his glory in this manner. All things are designed to bring him glory (Col 1). I feel like I am basically paraphrasing the beginning of Romans here, but prior to the law we did not know sin. As you mention the OT, the law came in so that we would know sin, thus know what Christ was fulfilling when he became the propitiation for God's wrath toward that sin (Rom 2-4). It was planned to show us, to teach us and ultimately to display God's glory to the universe. The fall of Adam was not a surprise. It was not a chapter in a choose your own ending book. It is all God's plan to show us his grace and mercy, and to display the importance of Christ.
As I read scripture, I cannot come away with any other construct. We have a sovereign God who designed vessels of wrath and vessels of grace. The vessels of grace were saved not by works (including a choice), but by grace so they could perform works predetermined for them to walk in (Eph 2). Praise be to God that he foreknew me as he did Jacob, loved me and chose me prior to any action I could be credited with.
The entirety of scripture builds a picture of a sovereign God.
PS… I have always said "The Matrix" can preach!
I have wrestled with these questions for some time, and certainly don't come to my conclusions quickly, or pretending that I've got God nailed down. God's foreknowledge is of no question to me (just read Acts 2:23 on that point this morning), but our role within His plans is an active one.
ReplyDeleteJeremiah 29:11-13 is that great call that not only does God have plans for our lives, but we can only find them when we seek them will all our hearts. So if God has truly set my life in an unavoidable motion, which I will never grant, I shall act in ignorance as I do my best to honor Him everyday.
I look forward to a Heaven where this debate has become null and void!